This used to bother me so much! When I was a little girl I thought that if you were a good person then you would be going to heaven, you were indeed saved. I remember looking at people and saying "They seem really nice, I'm sure they're going to heaven", as cute/funny as that seems it was bad! Not that I knew any better at that age, but I was doing that because I was wondering if I was a good enough person - if I was going to heaven or not. I believed that movie "All Dogs Go to Heaven" for the first few years of my life. "See theres even good dogs, just like they'res good people!" . . . no. Not so much. Obviously I found out that animals dont have souls, it was crushing. Where would my Mr. Barky Buns Schnauzer go after that UPS incident?!
But back to the real issue - salvation. I've heard a lot about how Jews aren't saved if they don't believe in Yeshua. When I hear this, my mind goes mad - how can a Jew not be saved?! It doesn't seem right to me. Jews are so serious about their beliefs, I realize not every Jewish person is religious, but most who are - its awesome what they do! Jews drastically change their lives to live according to Torah. We don't see this drastic change in christianity, well, not very often at least - and when we do, it seems to fade away.
I believe full-heartedly that many Jews are saved! Because what are we saved by? Faith! If we look at a Torah observant Jew - they have so much faith, a lot more than your average John Wayne from Riding With Jesus Cowboy Church! (Yeah, its real.) So by following Torah, something that most christians don't do, I think a Jew can be saved - not because of works, but because they walk in their faith, and also they are following Yeshua if they realize it or not.
I would like to add that only HaShem knows who is saved, because it really is all about the heart of the person.
Romans 3:27-3127 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. 28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of Torah commands. 29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.
Hey, Michaela!
ReplyDeleteI would love to discuss this with you. :D What is your email? Mine is john316shutterbug@gmail.com
Or would you rather discuss it thru comments on here?
Have a great summer!
Laura Rassier
Laura!!! :]
ReplyDeleteAwesome - I'd like to hear what you think of this.
We can comment on here, if that's cool with you.
I got some comments on Facebook about this too:
ReplyDelete"Michaela, I read your blog and respectfully, I must disagree. Believe me, I wish it were true that the faith and devoutness of Jews would have been enough to save them. But if that were the case, then Yeshua would never have had to come. If a Jewish person didn't have to accept and serve Yeshua, it negates the reason why he came. He came to save the Jews specifically and so therefore, that is to whom the sacrifice matters most. I'm glad that you are searching out scripture for yourself to find the answers. Romans is a great place to go for that because Paul's desire was for the Jews to be saved (not just the apostle to the gentiles. He always went to the synagogues first). So I'm going to point you in the direction of Romans 10.
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Verse 9 is the key. And the Jews have all the clues to get there. It's sad that the history of conflict between the church and the Jews has made a barrier, but if we start to count simple devoutness to be equal to right standing before the Lord, then what about a devout Muslim or a devout pantheist. You are right that only the Lord knows the heart and so we are not qualified to judge on an individual bases who is "saved" and who isn't. But God set a specific path to Him. Yeshua himself said that no one gets to the Father except through Him. Yeshua is key and it isn't an exclusive Christian system that set that up. It was the Father Himself.
Blessings to you!
Beth Helle Suyat"
My reply:
ReplyDeleteBeth - thanks for your reading and taking the time to comment!
I definitely see your point and where you're coming from.
Jews are waiting patiently for a coming Mashiach - from what I understand, he will be a human, not a god or supernatural being of any kind, just a regular man who will be king of Israel.
As for myself, I very much believe Yeshua as Mashiach, but those Jews who don't, I dont believe that God is going to send them to hell. And this is not because they are "good people" like I said in my blog. This is because they are sincere.
It's really the greek, Torahless "jesus" that christianity has set an example as the messiah, that the Jews hate and reject! And who can blame them - I hate it too and that is NOT the true messiah! Why? Because they surround it with lies and paganism, that's an abomination.
I'm not saying every Jew is saved because of they're faithfulness. But I believe the ones that are whole heartedly searching for God, following Torah because they want to please Him, not because they have to, and respect Yeshua, have it made. Thats beautiful! And they ARE following Yeshua! And heck, I think they're is a lot more Jews that are open to Yeshua and who believe in Him as the Mashiach then what we're seeing.
As for christians - what makes them saved? They ask jesus into their hearts and continue to be blinded by Torahlessness, they are getting no where in their faith! They continue sinning with no remorse. What exactly are they walking out? Nothing! I don't see anything that they're doing in their walk with God. "Oh, I quit smoking and I only drink on Friday nights with the buddies. I'm going to heaven." Thats what it has come down to. Most christians that I see don't care. Sure, they go to church on sundays and get all dressed up - but what then? What are you going to do - oh yeah, go out and disobey God by eating some good ol' bacon and cheese omelet at perkins - awesome. That's disgusting!
Just as I talked about before, this doesn't go for every christian - I have met a few that are really hungry for God's word and thats awesome! Good for them. But sadly, most of them are just as I describe as sausage sucking goys.
I don't mean this to cause offense to christians, I'm just trying to make my point on how I truthfully see this. And who knows, maybe I've just met a lot of messed up christians in my life.
To sum it up:
Yeshua is the LIVING WORD!!
Yeshua is the TREE OF LIFE!
Yeshua is the TORAH!!!!! :D
Jews follow and obey Torah!!! This is awesome!! They follow and obey Yeshua!!! ^_^
now, Jews who follow God with all their hearts are accepting Yeshua, because why?? Because Yeshua and Yahweh are one, so having faith in God is having faith in Yeshua.
Awesome post indeed!
ReplyDeleteWhat most people fail to realize, something which I have gained through a psychologist, is that what people "believe" sometimes, or more-so- Usually, does not match what they do and how they act. In other words, a person may say that they completely believe in God but are they are more than likely the usual tyrants against humanity/people. So, if "belief" in God produces the kind of people that impose they're every will, theory, ideology, and opinion upon someone else in which they only recognize kinship if they submit or agree to their every imaginative whim, then I would rather find my kin with those who do not "believe" in God; for their actions resemble more closely a person who fears Him.
In saying this, "works", so to speak, are only a result of the person's faith.
About Yehoshu`a and HaShem being One
he tells his talmidim in the Mesorah (i.e. "Gospel") of YehoHanan to "be One with me as I am One with HaBore/HaAb"
In other words, a talmid (disciple) can be AS his master, no more no less (Matthew 10:25)
Hence, anyone can be One with God as Yehoshu`a was One with Him.
There is no such thing as having "faith in Yeshu`a" only faith in the God of Yehoshu`a, Abraham abinu, we YissHaq abinu, we Ya`aqob abinu. To recall a person's name whilst recognizing God means MUCH Hebraically/Judaicly of which I dont have the sources in front of me at the moment to share with you in what ways it is and how these individuals have earned such marking.
In comparison to what I mean about this distinguishable term and saying, we dont hear being said, "the God of Mark Twain" or "The God of George Washington" or "The God of John, Matthew, and Luke".
there;'s much about this topic to say...
Michaela,
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking back to one famous Jew who said:
I speak the truth in Messiah—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Ruach— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. I could wish I were cursed and cut off from Messiah for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.
Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.
From this, Paul seems to be saying that Israel is largely lost, and only a remnant is saved. Paul is stressing the importance of faith, rather than works alone.
A person that relies only on works for salvation is a fraud. Catholic, Jewish, doesn't matter. Trusting faith -- emunah -- has to be in there. So the real question is, is the Jewish person with real faith, is he saved?
I bet both Poriel and Aaron will agree that real emunah is required for salvation.
But is trusting in Messiah required?
Yeshua's disciples set a model for us: preaching Messiah crucified to the Jew first, then to the gentile. That is the example for us to follow. Preach Yeshua to Jew and gentile.
First of all, no one is saved until they are actually saved...
ReplyDeleteIf Non-Yeshua-Judaism is "saved" without the Messiah, the Gospel message is worthless, and Paul saying to bring the Gospel message to the Jew first, then to the Gentile is also worthless waste of time...
If people are saved before Yeshua by simply fearing God, then this creates a dilemma that the Apostolic Writings failed to address. And thus creating two different forms of salvation, one either through God or one through His son... choose one doesn't matter... Then the scripture about Yeshua being the door and only way is false. And Abraham having hope and having seen the Messiah as the Gospel of John tells us is also false... The promise of the redemptive seed is found in Genesis 3:15... This seed is the one who from the beginning promised to Adam and Eve that one day this seed would redeem man. Thus before Yeshua came, He was the seed that was believed upon as a promise from God to save us... There is no difference between those who were before Yeshua and us who are after Yeshua, all believing in the promised seed... If you do not believe in the Promised seed in Genesis sent from God... if not you have nothing, no hope.
Zion/Jeruz
How do Peter's words in Acts 3 (quoting Moses) factor into this question? Here is a Jewish man speaking to a Jewish (& proselyte) audience about the critical importance of allegiance to Yeshua, the recently revealed & verified Jewish Messiah. Pretty strong words:
ReplyDelete17"And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Messiah would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah appointed for you, Yeshua, 21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.' 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.' 26God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness."
Yikes! Every person who doesn't listen to that prophet will be destroyed from his people??
Regarding foregiveness:
ReplyDeleteLe-havdil,
The first century historical Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth’s authentic teachings reads:
[Torah, Oral Law & Hebrew Matityahu: Ribi Yehoshua Commanded Non-Selective Observance
The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 5:17-20] (the redacted teachings are found in the “gospel” of Matthew (the redaction is anti-Torah; and Netzarim does not accept that account))
[Glossaries found in the website below.]:
"I didn't come to subtract from the Torâh of Moshëh or the Neviim, nor to add onto the Torah of Moshëh did I come. Because, rather, I came to [bring about the] complete [i.e., non-selective] observance of them in truth.
Should the heavens and ha-Aretz exchange places, still, not even one י or one of the Halâkhâh of the Torah of Moshehshall so much as exchange places; toward the time when it becomes that they are all being performed -- i.e., non- selectively -- in full.
For whoever deletes one [point of] the Halâkhâh of these mitzwot from Torah, or shall teach others such, [by those in] the Realm of the heavens he shall be called 'deleted.' And whoever ratifies and teaches them shall be called ' Ribi' in the Realm of the heavens.
For I tell you that unless your tzәdâqâh is over and above that of the [Hellenist-Roman Pseudo- Tzedoqim] Codifiers of halakhah, and of the Rabbinic- Perushim sect of Judaism, no way will you enter into the Realm of the heavens." (see NHM)
Quote from www.netzarim.co.il ; “History Museum”
The reconstruction is made using a scientific and logic methodology. One of the premises is that the historical Ribi Yehoshua was a Torah-observant Pharisee (why that premise is true is found in the above website, in which you also will find more information about why a reconstruction is needed).
The historical Ribi Yehoshua and his followers Netzarim observed Torah non-selectively. The above website proofs that the person who want to follow the historical Ribi Yehoshua must do likewise.
This is what Ribi Yehoshua taught and he taught in accordance with Torah, that anyone who adds a mitzwah (directive or military style order) or removes a mitzwah from Torah is a false prophet.
The logical implications of Ribi Yehoshuas teachings, which are in accordance with the teachings of Torah, is that it is Christians whom are lost and need to change their lifestyle in order to get a relationship with the Creator.
More about how to receive the foregiveness of the Creator is found in my blog post: http://bloganders.blogspot.com/2009/10/discussion-with-christians-atonement.html
The above text and Netzarim-website implies that the “gospel” is erroneous.
Anders Branderud